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Podcast Guesting Pro founder Graham Brown joins podcast host Dan Turchin on "AI and the Future of Work" podcast to discuss what entrepreneurs need to know about the art of storytelling. The following is a transcript of their conversation. For more tips on podcast guesting success, go to our podcast guesting resources.

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Dan Turchin 00:14 

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, depending on where you're listening. Welcome back to AI and the future of work. Thanks again for making this one of the most downloaded podcasts about the future of work. If you enjoy what we do, please like, comment and share in your favorite podcast app. And we will keep sharing great conversations. This is your host, Dan Turchin, advisor at insight finder, the system of intelligence for IT operations and CEO of people reign, the AI platform for it and HR employee service. You know, we often discuss what it means to be human in a world of machines and we also discuss what innately human skills will never be automated. As you know, I'm a firm believer that being on the right side of innovation means embracing automation to make us better. Humans. For example, machines are great at recalling facts, but humans are much better at knowing how and when to use them. Well today, we get to explore that theme with an expert storyteller who happens to tell stories about technology among other things. Graham Brown's an award-winning podcast host who helps others tell better stories. He's the CEO of Pikkal, a full service podcast agency for B2B clients. Graham traveled the world, learning about cultures and teams. So he's also got a few opinions about the future of work. Without further ado, it is my pleasure to welcome Graham to the podcast. Graham let's, let's kick things off. Share a little bit more about your very colorful background and, how you got into this space. 

Graham Brown 01:52 

Well, first, thanks for inviting me down. It's great to be here. Love the podcast as well. Especially this topic. This is right in the sites of what I find really fascinating about where we're going. Not just future but history as well. I think you've gotta understand the bigger picture here. I'm a storyteller, as you say. And, you know, I think it's one of those things. when you are a kid, your mom would scold you for being a storyteller, stop telling stories. Dan, that was always sort of synonymous with lying, wasn't it. But as you grow older, you realize that actually storytelling isn't a fabrication, but a really powerful tool. In business, in general life. It's a way of communicating. It's a way of influencing. It's a way of engaging people without stories or the ability to tell stories. Really there's little to differentiate us from machines. So, increasingly what's happening now down is in the B2B space, especially companies leaders are asking, how do we tell stories? And for them it's well, I know once upon a time, but they have to kind of understand how to take all that. What they've learnt, you know, from kindergarten, what's natural and what they've been exposed to, and then package that and put it into a business context. So that's what I help them do. And it's, it sounds easy, but the hard part is, you know, vulnerability is standing up there and telling something about yourself and that is hard if you spent your whole life doing the complete opposite, which is, you know, being the polished efficient leader. So this is the challenge we're in. And this really falls into that space of the future of work, because this is a skill that people increasingly need to have and is missing in their resumes. 

Dan Turchin 03:43
Fond of saying anything that can be predicted is better left to machines, but anything that requires judgment or emotion is better left to humans. What do you, what would you say is the art of great storytelling that will never be replaced by machines? 

Graham Brown 04:01 

Yeah. Well, you know, stories have been around for thousands of years, haven't they? And, you go way back to the epics of Gilgamesh or even those original cave paintings you see in the south of France, which they, they date to 20, 25,000 years ago. You know, you've got the stories of the, the animal stampedes. There's actually, if you look at the ones in Leco, which are in the Southwest of France, these sort of, I think they're sort of 26,000 BC. So pre-history, they've got the pictures of like the Buffalo stampedes, but at the bottom, there's like a really fascinating, sort of, I, I don't know it is done deliberately, but there's like a pair of child's hands. It's like female hands. They must be about six years old, five years old. And she's put like a hand print on the wall whilst there's doing these paintings. And you think, that was 20, 30,000 years ago, but a, a child today would do the same. If you gave her a paint pot, she would put her hands in it and put on the wall. And that's probably a very basic form of storytelling. It's a very human act. If you think about what is it that we do when we tell stories effectively, we are trying to connect with people. We are trying to convey, we're trying to engage and we're trying to influence people with outcomes favorable to us, and really, you know, the art of storytelling. It's not a mystery. You know, you could go and watch Avengers, you know, or Marvel any, any of the Marvel stories and you see a plot line that has been around for thousands of years, you know, it's not original. You see Harry Potter, you see lord of the rings, you see star wars. They're the same. Everyone has the same plot line. And the, the irony is we don't walk out of the movie theater and think, Hey God, down, that was the same as Harry Potter and I feel, you know, I've been tricked. We, we actually want that. We want familiar storylines. We want, you know, if you read Joseph Campbell, the hero's journey, he talks about the, the hero with a thousand faces. You know, they, we have these familiar archetypes that appear in culture and myth and business and story, you know, whether it's the, the whi old, you know, the, the, the wizard with the gray beard, the gandar for the OB one type figure or the accidental hero, you know, the Hobbit or Luke or whoever is. These are archetypes that perpetuate throughout history and to tell good stories is to understand that stories have these established plot lines, which are accepted. They've been validated to talk about, you know, in style up parlance, you know, they've been validated through thousands of years. And if you understand how stories work, they have a science in them, which is that there are familiar plot lines we've been using, which engage audiences. So Steve jobs was a utilizer of these plot lines. When he launched the iPhone, for example, he used the familiar accidental hero narrative, which is that, you know, we didn't choose events, events chose us, which is every single sort of hero monomyth for thousands of years. And that works really well. And whether he was doing it consciously, or he just had a good feel for storytelling, it goes to show the power of being able to communicate through existing narrative structures. And that is really storytelling. And the great thing is, is once you see it, you can use it. The flip side of that down is when you're sitting there with your wife, watching a movie, you'll spoil every single movie that you're sitting there, cuz you say, oh, this is what happens next. You've seen it before, obviously. So I warn you. That's what happens once you start looking at everything, you start to see it everywhere. 

Dan Turchin 07:57
Those cave paintings atlas go are every bit as sophisticated and as beautiful as anything that was ever painted by DaVinci or Michel Angelo. I, I love those images that, that you evoked and the hands and the, the, you know, the, the maternal figures that's, sends chills down my spine, I, I couldn't agree more 

Graham Brown 08:17
But connects us, doesn't it? That, doesn't it connect us with them. They're timeless 30. So incredible. 30,000 years ago they were connected with their humanity. Absolutely. You could imagine it. You see the scene don't you about how it happens and that that's incredible. Really? 

Dan Turchin 08:33
It's it's like you're there. Absolutely. Now you're talking to an audience of, of entrepreneurs and technologists and every day, they're telling stories and maybe they're telling a story to a customer, or maybe they're telling a story to an investor. What are the things that they should know about reading an audience and what are some of the things that you see aspiring storytellers get wrong the first time?

Graham Brown 09:02 

Yeah. It's interesting that a lot of especially entrepreneurs live by storytelling, but are unaware of it. Think about if you're a founder, let's say, and you've been in this situation, you know, raising funds, hiring, selling. It's all storytelling really, Isn't it? Like when you raise funds it's you are trying to get somebody to invest in an idea, something that hasn't happened yet. And if you are hiring, it's the same, like leave your comfortable job in the bank and join this highly risky startup, which isn't making any money. That's storytelling cuz what you're trying to do effectively. If we look at the science of storytelling, the human brain can't distinguish between past and future. It doesn't know the difference. It doesn't have a section of the brain specifically for past and one for the future imagination. It's all the same, it's all experience. So what the story effectively does is connect an experience we've had. In the past, experience we've seen, experience we've felt with a, an outcome we haven't yet experienced. So that's why it's a very powerful way of convincing people about future outcomes that are unknown by linking them to what we already know. That's the science, put it into context. Let's think about, go back a couple of years when the pandemic was just happening and everybody was trying to make sense of everything. And one of the things people, started floating around was this idea of flattening the curve. And you, as soon as I say that, you'll probably visualize that curve that everybody saw from that article. And it's, it's a really good example of what I call data storytelling, which is that, you know, you can imagine if somebody tried to explain that concept in data, and explain the data. It wouldn't have gone anywhere, but flattening the curve spread to hundreds of millions, if not billions of people, the idea because of the story flattening the curve is a story because it shows movement. It shows change, shows what we need to do. There are heroes and villains inside that data. And you may not think of it as a story, but in fact, it is, it's a way of getting people to understand information that they don’t have experience of by linking it to what we already know. And a, another great example of that is, and more tangible is a map. If you think about a map, you know, the world is the earth is a 3D sphere. But if you think it, when we see it on the wall, it's a 2d rendition and people will never look at that and thinking, how do you take, you know, a four by three piece of paper and make it into a, a 3D sphere? It's,it is physically impossible, no matter how you do it. Right. And a map is a representation. And that's the point is that we don't challenge it. We accept that. That is the world. That's how I see the world. And it just so happens that, you know, you've got like New York and London and sort of the main sort of access of the world if you like, that sort of shows how we see the world. Right. And if you flip that, and this is what people don't realize when it comes to, you know, if you're an entrepreneur are communicating, it's just how important these frames are for what you're doing. If you flip a map on its head, there's a, there's a map. I dunno if you've seen this Dan called the south up map. Have you seen this thing or you can Google this thing. There's a, it is a south up map. It basically it's the world, but flipped on its head. If you show it to somebody and they'll say, well, it's upside down. That's not the earth is upside down. Well, the earth isn't upside down because in space, there is no up and no down, right. That's the reality of the physics of space. And then they will say, well, but the compass points north and well, the reality is it doesn't point north, it points north and south again, like, you know, that sort of basic physics. And they say, well, you know, the red part is pointing north that some guy years ago actually painted it red. Actually the original Chinese compass used to point south, interestingly, anyway, but that's a side, but that's your job as an entrepreneur, your job is to create a map for your audience because without the map, they don't know where to go. You're giving them data, you're giving them ideas. You're giving them things they're unfamiliar with and you're saying, we need to go here. Your job is to create that worldview for them to understand. And I think there's a sort of a naivety that people will see the world as it is. They will consume your data, your, you know, your sort of startup pitch deck for what it is. You know, it's a great idea, but people don't buy that. They buy the journey, you're taking them on. They buy that sort of whole narrative that they're familiar with. And that is really important because without it, everything is really naked. And you can see the power of it. Everything from a map to public health initiatives, how it works, 

Dan Turchin 14:24 

I'm gonna get on a soap box and say the future of work favors those who cultivate these innately human skills in a world that increasingly will rely on the fusion of humans and machines. If you believe that hypothesis, what do you tell your son or my daughters, or, you know, kids out there who are thinking about the skills that they should be cultivating today to be not just great storytellers, but to really embrace this future of work in 10 or 20 years.

Graham Brown 15:02 

Yeah, I have a 15 year old son so this is the conversation that's happening now. It's interesting when you talk about it in these terms, and then you're having that conversation over dinner and trying to keep it relevant, you know, maybe he doesn't understand storytelling. I mean, he understands what he is, but he doesn't understand why he needs it, but he understands the skills that he needs. I mean, he's into games like most teenage boys are. And interested in, for example, the, the whole publishing process of games. And so for him, it's okay. What is the purpose of him going to university? For example, that's the question that's coming up now, for you and I, Dan, that was never an option. I'm sure to have that conversation with our parents. It was like the only option. I'm sure. You know, if you go back 20 years or so you wouldn't have the option not to go to university, that was healing as a failure, but now it's it's I think it's an option for the next generation. And therefore they need to learn skills, which necessarily they're not teaching at university because, you know, I believe that the education system models society, it's an industrial model. It's the factory model of education designed to create factory workers and a factory worker doesn't necessarily mean, you know, making widgets, it could be a lawyer. it could be a doctor, it could be factory workers in a factory model. We haven't yet aren't fully understood what their next model is. I know we talk about the new normal, but the skills they're gonna need are the ones which you say, you know, aren't rational, aren't predictable. It's the very human skills. You know, we, if you think about the factory model, was it, it's an era of efficiency, isn't it?It's Henry Ford. It's, you know, you can have any color as long as it's black. Well, he chose black paint because it dried faster. That's the, the reality. Right? And if you think about that model, the, the least efficient part of the model was the human being. That's why, I mean, when you go to McDonald's, the customer is always right, because the employee is always wrong. That's the mantra. Isn't it. The last part is implied. And the peak efficiency that we've now experienced will expose our need for these new skills. You know, we don't want people, we don't want more efficiency, efficiency, isn't yielding any kind of value to us beyond a certain point now and beyond peak efficiency, we want authenticity. People are talking about being authentic and being vulnerable and humanizing brands, empathy. These are skills 10 years ago, which you never would've talked about, never even knew what the meanings were. So these are the skills that people will need. The skills that you cannot scale, the skills that machines cannot do yet. And, they can pretty much do most things, but they can't, you know, they can't tell stories. They can't be authentic. They can't be vulnerable. They can't write a love song because even though they have access to billions of data sets, a machine's never been rejected by a girl or a boy, you know, a machine's never felt like it's weird as a teenager and therefore it can't do it from a position of pain or authenticity, which really makes it believable. That's why, you know, when a CEO stands up and says, oh, you know, we're in trouble. You believe it. If you believe in that person, a machine could never do that. Because it could never come from that position of vulnerability. And we're only really understanding it. I'm curious to know what you think Dan, is that, you know, from your conversations, when people talk about vulnerability and authenticity in the future of work and these new skills, what exactly are they? Cause I don't think we've yet had the proper discussion though. It hasn't made it yet to the world of business literature exactly what these things are. 

Dan Turchin 19:18 

Skills to me that are timeless and that, you know, I would encourage my kids. I'm a little bit behind your, your 15 year old son, my girls are 14 and 12 and things that I want them to do or learn what they're passionate about. And I want 'em to invest themselves in a cause so important to them that they're willing to give everything, to see it succeed. And to me, it's that passion, that thirst for knowledge, the creativity, the desire to make other people around you better, that makes us different from machines. And we can talk about GPT 3 and large language models. That's not intelligence and so I always advocate on this show that the A in AI, it's not artificial. It's about augmenting the intelligence of humans, anything that’s fact based or can be recalled, leave that to machine learning, but anything that requires empathy or judgment or creativity, that's what people are for. And we always, we always will be better at machines. We're the only species that have the ability to cultivate, to hone that craft and, you know, that's what I always, you know, encourage my daughters. It's not about if you get a technical degree or a liberal arts degree, those are, those are artificial constructs made up by the educational institution. It's really about finding something you're, you're passionate about and loving it and living it and defining a, you know, a career, a persona, a life around that thing. So, yeah

Graham Brown 21:01 

I love that idea of augmented intelligence. It's very true. We need to understand intelligence in itself and you know what, and again, it's more of a, sort of a question to ourselves and understand what it means to be human. We never, I suppose, you know, it's full circle going back to the Greek philosophers, you know, a lot thoughts about what, what we are and why we are here and let you talk about the passion and the, the really the why for your daughters as well. You know, they've gotta discover that. Yeah. It's, I remember a quote by Carl Sagan and he said, if you wanna make an apple pie from scratch, you've gotta first invent the universe. I think we are there. I think, you know, if you wanna understand intelligence you, you've gotta, sorry, if you wanna understand. AI, if you wanna understand the future of work, you've gotta understand humanity and intelligence as well. You know, work isn't work for work's sake. It has a purpose and therefore, you know, asking questions like, you know, what are my daughters gonna do? What, what are they passionate about? These are not existential first world questions. These are the what if questions that we need to ask and everybody needs to ask. And it's only sort of, you know, I think in the last couple of years there's been this slight wrinkle in the fabric of, you know, the work universe that people have actually seen for a very short time, maybe an alternate reality. They've started to ask questions, like, why am I doing this? You know, the great resignation is a theme now. Right? And hopefully these conversations like with your podcast and will continue rather than just sort of fade away, like, you know, the memories of the virus, like, oh, that was the 2020s. Hopefully we can keep these conversations going and people can ask these what if questions, which, you know, they may be uncomfortable. Why do this job? Why go to university? Why do a liberal arts degree or a technical degree? You know, why are we doing this? What is the purpose of work and even school? And these are the sort of examine questions that may annoy people, but they're necessary 

Dan Turchin 23:16 

The modern day, uh, equivalent of the employer or the, the employee or the laborer who fears that AI will take their job. It's the, you know, it's the Luddite from, you know, the 18th century who feared machines. There's always been some idea that technology or some externality, some, you know, external thing will make people obsolete, but to be on the right side of innovation means embracing these changes and continuing to ask questions about, like you said, what it, what does it mean to be human? And I flip that argument about, you know, the bottom apocalypse on its head and I say, what would happen if in literally within a decade, if technology gave you back an hour a day, Say you make the same salary, but you have an hour back a day, 12 and a half percent of your life back. Who are you then? How can you be a better spouse, a better friend, a better parent. What's that passion that you have that's latent that's fighting to get out. Well, just imagine within a decade, thanks to technology. You're gonna have an opportunity to pursue that thing that makes you the best version of yourself. That's the future of work to me, that's the role that AI is planning. 

Graham Brown 24:36 

That's the vision that we hope to work towards. Wanna just briefly go back to your point about the Luddite standing cause I think that was really important, especially for your listeners, because when we think of Luddite, we think of sort of semi-intelligent, slightly reactive people who smashed machines. Well, the reality with Luddites was, is that they were actually highly skilled artisans. The Luddites were weavers. If you go back to the 17th and 18th century, which pre-industrial revolution, and this is the important, you know, the last and real industrial revolution, I know we've had four and this, some people talk about AI as the fourth industrial revolution, but if you go back to the first one, the Luddite smashing the machines. Well, the, if you were a Weaver, the a Weaver was pretty much the most, highly skilled and highly paid job you could have had unless you were born as a, you know, landed Gentry or some kind of, you know, priest, some, you know, privileged position that's as good as you got. So it was a highly skilled professional job and if you are a Weaver, then you could work three days a week. You could spend the rest of the week off. You could own a freehold land. You weren't in debt and you, your, your own man, you could look after a family and feed them and that was a highly privileged position for somebody who was born, um, you know, not into privilege. And if you think about it, that that role, that profession is very similar to, for example, a doctor or a lawyer on accountant today, it's highly skilled, highly educated. You could pass it from generation to generation and interestingly when the, you know, the reasons why the weavers smashed the looms was because they were automating their work and, you know, they had a good reason to it. In fact, they, they smashed so many looms that you could actually be hanged. If you smashed the loom, they invented, you know, they in introduced these sort of capital punishments for loom smashing. And that's how the Luddites, you know, got their sort of myth if you like. But the interesting thing, what happened to the Luddites and the weavers, they were pushing to factories. And they went from highly skilled professionals, educated to cheap factory workers within a generation because of the mechanical loan, because of automation. Because of the industrial revolution and people see that and think that's what happens. That is AI. That is the next generation. All these people being pushed into the equivalence of factories, the gig economy, whatever it is, and turned into cheap workers. Well, there's a second part to the story that doesn't get told. And that is that, all that cloth, that textile, that they were creating for the cities for the, the burgeoning middle classes had to be sold. You know, they correct these patterns and table cloths and, you know, a tablecloth back then was the equivalent of a Tesla. It was a sign of leisure and materialism. You had a table cloth that meant people came to your house. If people came to your house, you were important. You had leisure time, you had money to spend on China, you know, and like tea. So, these were important artifacts that needed selling and to sell them, we didn't have a system of selling this kind of stuff before. So they needed to create a new industry and that industry was retail. And at the same time, all this automation was happening that the Lu dates were pushed into the factory. This new industry was being created and we were seeing this shift from mechanical mechanized work to this human touch. You know, you needed to tell stories to sell, patent textiles to middle class women. And so, you know, if you look at the fourth industrial revolution where we are in the future of work, again we're seeing this shift from effectively, what is spreadsheet based work to storytellers. You know, if you're an accountant or a lawyer or a doctor in your work can be done, like you say, Dan predictably, if it's about filling spreadsheets in a very glorious way, then machines will do that and it won't be the low skilled workers that get decimated because they're all, they're, they're highly agile. They can evolve, then find some other kind of work. It's the guys who spent 10 years getting educated that are gonna get wiped out. It's the doctors and the accountants and the lawyers. They'll be wiped out by an algorithm, which is the scary part, cuz they're the least agile of all. And it's the new industries that will form the storytellers like the, the next equivalent of retail, whatever that is, that human touch, that will really be the skills that we need to educate people with. 

Dan Turchin 29:33 

Yeah. I had an opportunity to spend a semester in college, in England and I was studying leadism and the highlight of my semester was every Saturday morning at the crack of dawn 6:00 AM, I'd be up and I'd get on a train to go someplace that nobody else had ever heard of. But to me, these were meccas, these old industrial centers where you get off the train and there'd be nothing, but, you know, a vending machine and a platform and a, and a dilapidated old factory. And you just, you can just hear these walls tell stories, you know, their 250 year old stories about the industrial revolution and you, you, you just start to, you know, imagine what it would've been like to be one of those laborers and to be displaced and to reinvent yourself and to, you know, be become, you know, a, a wage earner and in retail or something else and there's just no, no more fulfilling experience as a technologist to be in a place that was, you know, really saw the, the birth of. You know, the, you know, what you think is the antithesis of, of technology where machines were broken, but you see kind of the rebuilding or the creation of this culture around Reveering technology, kind of, you know, rising up from the ashes of these old factories.

Graham Brown 30:56  

Wow. Yeah. That's the part about history? Isn't it? We, we can understand the future. Yeah. Effectively. It's a transfer of value. Isn't it? From one group of people in society to another. Yeah. It's not destroyed. So that's being on the right side of it is key here. Right? 

Dan Turchin 31:12 

I've, I've gotta ask. I'm fascinated by your background. I know you've traveled a lot and you, you know, you're a deep thinker about the future of work and about technology, pick one of the places that you've been and tell us about the culture and any kind of, you know, thoughts about the future of work that you learned from being in that culture that maybe, you know, is one that our listeners aren't familiar with.

Graham Brown 31:37 

Wow. So many, so little time, but that's like life isn't it and travel generally, well I spent a lot of time in Japan. I lived in Japan in the, the 90s post bubble, which was a very exciting time if you're growing up and you were, you know, you were, I mean, I graduated with an AI degree, funnily enough, in 95 when nobody knew what that was useful for. So I was sent out to teach English in Japan, which was sort of, you know, like the world, the new world in nineteens. It was still Sony and Toshiba and TDK, all these sort of exciting brands, which really were the future. And the sort of transformation of Japan to today is, is a number of things about, we can learn about the future of work. You know, it was in some ways like the Chinese economy today, it was, you know, turning out incredible growth in its GDP, it was producing amazing innovations. And yet fundamentally inside the heart of it was this inflexibility to change that, you know, it, it couldn't, because of its success, it couldn't learn how to, you know, adapt to a new model. And part of it was demographics as well. I mean, I went to, down in the south of Japan and the island Kyushu, the city of Fukuoka is sort of the designated startup city of Japan and it's sort of, you know, if you think about the geography of the US, you've got New York and the valley, they're sort of as far apart as possible, aren't they physically on the mainland and it's the same with, Japan is like you got Tokyo and Fukuoka , they're almost like in a similar kind of geographical positioning and I was down there at this startup hub and I walked into this building, which was where they had all these startups housed. And I thought this looks a bit familiar and you walk in and I dunno if you've ever been to a, a Japanese school and they, they have the first thing you'll hit as you walk in is just all these kind of cubby holes, where you put all your slippers in and your shoes and, you know, there's like hundreds of them cuz there's hundreds of kids, but there were no kids there anymore. It was just all sort of the startup founder's shoes. And then you walk in and you walk around and the whole place is a school. And then you realize that actually there used to be children here and now there are startups and nobody's sort of really thinking about it. And I thinking it's a little bit strange, cuz there's a whole generation of kids that aren't there anymore because like, you know, the Japanese demographics the, you know, they're gonna lose 40 million people in the next 30 years because there are no children anymore. Literally, you know, you can walk around and you see this complete change and what's that does for work is it creates this hardening of mindsets. As you get older, you're less flexible to change, but you need that young generation to challenge you need, you know, when Japan was flying, it was because they were young people, you know, the families were like three kids and they were, you know, challenging the way of doing things and they were driving innovation. And I think you see it there that the future of work really lies with young. The problem with us old people is that we have experience and the young people are, you know, they're the ones that get on TikTok. They're the ones that, you know, happy to build their personal brand because it's natural to them cuz they realize they have to do that to get ahead now. Whereas old people are like, oh no, I can't do that because what if I make a mistake? Or, you know, that's the challenge that we have. And I think, you know, you see in Japan that dynamic playing out that without young people, there is no change because that's what they do. They change things and they challenge things and that's why we need them. And for us in work it's to see what young people are doing. And learn from them, whether that's inside your workplace or actually just observing how young people are using media today. I think that's really something that we need to get better at. 

Dan Turchin 35:45 

I love that metaphor startups really are barefoot children, right? Yeah. And, and they're, you know, they're, it's, it's messy and it's beautiful. And, and, you know, they're, they're, they're constantly striving, you know, to, to become that perfect version of themselves and to grow up and they're learning and they're, they're getting bruised knees and that's part of the experience right of, you know, of, of growing up as a child growing up as a startup. So, gosh, I think we, we came full circle and, yeah. Wow. This, this one's been so much fun, Graham. I really, we're just getting started. I, I hope 

Graham Brown 36:24 

is that time Dan, that's gone so fast

Dan Turchin 36:26 

I, you know I, it feels like we're just getting started.

Dan Turchin 36:30 

I,  would you please take up, take me up on the offer, will you come back and can we continue where we left off?

Graham Brown 36:34 

Let's do a part 2. Well, it's just so much we haven't talked about. We, you know, we haven't talked about future of work in healthcare, future of work in, and I just wanna leave your audience with a thought, if I may, Dan, is that something you mentioned and I wanted to say at the time, but we didn't have time, like for your audience, when you think about this change, never forget that a computer used to be a human being. Not many people know that a computer used to be a, like a clock or a clerk, as you say, on your side of the Atlantic, almost, almost like an accountant, you know, in the 17th, 18th century. Think about that.

Dan Turchin 37:12 

Well, Graham, this has really been so much fun and, uh, we have so much more to still learn from you. So we're gonna have you back just great work and, uh, wish you all the best of luck and look, uh, look forward to having the next version of this conversation. 

Graham Brown 37:25 

Dan. Thank you. Wonderful host, love your podcast and can't wait to see how this turns out. 

Dan Turchin 37:31 

Well, this is your host, Dan Turchin of AI and the future of work, signing off for this week. But, we're back next week with another fascinating guest.

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About The Author Graham Brown

Graham Brown is the founder of Podcast Guesting Pro. Graham is a published author on the subject of Digital Communication and Personal Branding (Amazon titles include "Brand Love: How to Build a Brand Worth Talking About" and "Mobile Youth: Voices of the Connected Generation). He has produced, project managed and guested on over 2,000 podcast episodes.